Some twelve years ago at the Miami Gay & Lesbian Film Festival queerguru stumbled across a documentary of what seemed to be a couple of unassuming lesbians simply telling their tale of how they came 'out of the closet' when they found each other some 30 years previously. However they turned out to be a remarkable pair of feisty colorful outspoken Jewish women from Brooklyn who divorced their husbands and left their children to start a life together which included a lifetime commitment to selflessly helping our community. One of the (very many) achievements that these two LGBT activists chalked up was way back in 1988 when they successfully sued the NY City Board of Education for domestic partnership rights.
They both made such a lasting impression with me, that when I discovered that they were about to get their umpteenth award for the unstinting and tireless work they do helping others, I thought it would be the perfect time to not only talk to them about this, but more importantly also discover why their relationship is one of the most endearing love stories that I have ever come across.
Ruth Berman and Connie Kurtz are now in their early 80's and show no sign of taking things easy. As well as their boundless energy, this disarmingly charming couple have an infectious sense of humor and are brimming with optimism that perpetuates in all the anecdotes they so openly shared with me. They are, as their Rabbi says, known universally as 'Ruthie and Connie' which is really just one word, and I found as we sat down to chat at The Biltmore Hotel they are still every bit as excited about being together as they were when they met over forty years ago.
QG: Why was your movie called 'Every Room in the House?’
R: That’s a wonderful story. The original title was "Ruthie & Connie More Than A Love Story" but when Oscar-nominated director Deborah Dixon signed on to the project she said she was not happy with the title. When she suggested the new title I was very upset and said “No I want it to say love story”. However she put her foot down and said it is a love story that happens not just in the bedroom but in every single room in the house. We really liked that definition, and so we went along with it.
QG: In the movie when you first get together romantically with Connie, you tell her that you were not happy with her first kiss. Has she got better now?
R: (beaming) Oh yes, oh yes! It was just a remark …
C: (laughing) Which she does sometimes…..
QG: Let's talk about what a pair of romantics that you are. In the early days when you were both still married to your husbands you were writing these passionate love letters to each other and then destroying them so no-one would find out.
C: We are very big romantics and I do know that in every room in the house there is a love affair going on. There is such a joy of knowing that she is always here with me.
R: I cannot explain fully the emotional and physical impact that was happening to me in regards to me falling in love with Connie, as it was so overwhelming. I never even dreamt that we would come together as a couple, and I don't think I have ever read a book or seen a movie that described my feelings that I experienced.
QG: Let’s go back to those days when you had to decide between your husband and in some respects your kids, and choose to finally be with each other. How did you both find the strength and resolve to do that?
C: Going over this is not easy, even all these years later. I didn't like being a mother. I never viewed myself as a good mother, and I was not one. I didn't know how to be one. I didn't even know how to be a woman, so how the hell was I going to be a mother? So to me I did a mitzvah and let my children be with their father. I wasn't there for them, and I couldn’t give mothering that I viewed other mothers give to their children. So falling in love with Ruthie gave me the freedom to let my children be who they are .
I felt then that I was not an adult. I still had remnants of being a sick child and needing to rest and be happy, and yet here I was having to be there for my kids. It is tough talking about it but I am very grateful now that my kids are fine, otherwise I would have this terrible burden of guilt if they were not healthy and didn't have a life of their own …. but they do,
My daughter has the residue still of a very difficult relationship with me, and I am sorry about that, but there is nothing that I can do about what was. I only know that I love her and she loves me even though there is still 'stuff'. On the other hand Moshe and I had a different relationship because he is a boy and I could manage being a mother to a boy but I simply couldn’t manage being a mother to a girl, because I didn’t know how to be a girl. I’m not making nice to myself, but I do seem to think that I need to pound myself to make myself look bad in order to accept that I left my children.
This is the first time that I am talking this way and it’s been 45 years. I don't know how anyone can take anybody else into consideration when you make such an enormous leap from the traditional to the healthy. The day I allowed myself to be physically with Ruthie and then to go and live with her, I was my healthiest in every single way.
QG: to Ruthie : You liked being a mother?
R: I loved being a mother, and my life was very fine. I was moving up professionally in my career as teacher and counsellor, and so this was probably the most difficult decision that I had ever made, or will ever make in my life. I was the only child of a handicapped woman who was widowed when I was 10 and we were very poor. Being Orthodox Jewish meant that the thing you were brought up to do was to bring your parents ‘naches’ (joy), especially being a girl . So at the time it was so painful to make a decision of where I wanted to be, and it left a mark which is still there today.
The difficulties that we had with Connie being shut out of the relationships with my children and their spouses, and my now late ex husband, also hasn't healed yet. I try to juggle everything so that it would all work out and that I could be OK with Connie. The thing that changed everything was that it became the high Holy Days ….Yom Kippur … and I knew that this was my chance. At this very important holiday you are meant to take care of things that need settling at that time and before the Ark closes. So as I had made up my mind that I wanted to be with Connie, I went to my ex husband during Services and I said ‘it’s over.’
QG: Do you think the whole aspect of coming out as gay and having to take into consideration the fact you are a parent is a problem that just lesbians have to deal with (and not gay men)?
C: Married and divorced women with children go through this continuously with their husbands. When I was leaving for Israel totally alone and having dinner on the boat, the person next to me said you must not be close with your family. I said 'I don't know what is close to me is, but you are absolutely right' as I didn’t have a close relationship with my own parents. I remember when my daughter gave birth just two years ago to her second child, and I asked if she would like me to come help. I hope she heard my sincerity, but she has a tiny house and she said not to come as it would be much too claustrophobic. She was absolutely right, and I didn’t feel insulted at all. I deal with Eileen and she deals with me very differently than a lot of other mother-daughter relationships.
However if my children had given Ruthie a difficult time in a similar way that her children gave me, I would have divorced my children. I would have acted towards my parents the same way if they had been against her too and I would have divorced them because she and I were the priority. The point was that our relationship together was so clear to me, the only shocker was the fact that it was with Ruthie who I had already known then for 14 years . Up until then I never saw her as a lover or a sexual being . I had no experience, but she had just transformed herself into this most sensitive person and at that time there were the hours that we spent where she was crying . She didn't stop crying.
QG: But what do you say to women now on the threshold of coming out and have children? Is it the same situation?
R: In listening to you Connie, I’ve just realized the uniqueness of who you are. That kind of uniqueness in a relationship to your parents, to your children, to the whole works. You didn't buy it …. and it probably wasn’t even sold to you, but it was sold to most women…. to be a mother and to be a wife. The important thing is that I fell in love with you and the way that you are helped me to fully come out and for the two of us together to be in this room right now and being interviewed because we are pioneers and this is all because of you .
C: There is a truth in that. We were asked this question just this past week. What would you tell the people who are still in the closet today. Ruthie answered in a split second ‘tell them to call us’. Ruthie is right. Call us. If you are going to be so caught in the way you are supposed to be and you can’t get out of it, then don’t get out of it. Stay in it : stay married : stay unhappy. Stay with the guy and the diarrhea, the migraine and the constant headaches and backaches. There is nothing more that Ruthie and I can do. Is there a solution ? Yes. You have to be able to detach yourself from this ‘but I love them!’ I love them also, and yet I have a full life without being next door to them, or in their lives.
QG: How did two closeted lesbians, partly in denial, go from compliant wives and mothers to activists who screamed on The Phil Donahue Show on TV “I REFUSE to keep quiet!”
R: I’m going to my new theory which is 6 years old now from when my youngest granddaughter was born. When I saw for the first time she was two weeks old . We looked into each other's eyes and I knew then that every single human being is born with everything that is going to be with them. Not what’s going to happen and why? Because parents get in the way, teachers get in the way, self esteem gets in the way but it's all there if we really knew how to bring it out. So I recognized the same thing for myself, born into the family I was born into and the experiences that I had.
I started screaming when I was in the 9th grade. I was Female Class President and Christmas was coming and I knew that in music lessons we would sing Christmas songs . I said “No! We’ve got to sing Hanukkah songs too”. I got the three class Presidents together and I said we don’t sing no matter what Mrs Parker plays. Tell everybody not to sing, They didn’t all know why, but I did. So she comes in and plays the chords and there is silence. She plays them again, and silence still. Then she wanted to know what was going on. As I am responsible and 90 kids are looking at me, I said “well, we are mostly Jewish kids and we would like to sing Hanukkah songs too”. She listens and says you’re going to have to bring your mother up and go see the Principal. I knew again that I had something. My mother was handicapped so when she walks into the Jewish Principal's office and talks Hanukah I knew we couldn't lose and we didn't. That was my very first fight and it continued throughout my life.
QG: Did you stop like that when you were married to Sol?
R: No, No! There was the Mother’s Action Committee for Cantello Apartment Buildings in Brooklyn and we got lights were there were no street lights. We got a synagogue and all kinds of things for the community and it was all very democratic.
QG: You never hesitated about what you wanted then, but still had trouble with yourself on a personal level.
R: I don't think so, but my personal issues did trouble me. I was concerned that I would be looked on as ugly . I didn’t know any lesbian in my whole life. I only knew …..what was that book?
R: I thought then that it was a disgusting thing and the people were disgusting people, and that wasn't going to be me. I couldn’t handle it.
QG: You went from being a couple together to being activists running an LGBT self help group and working with PFLAG. Why?
R: The first year that we were together we didn't know a single lesbian or a gay man. So what do you do …. you go to Manhattan every night. You go to Bars and you go to wherever they are and you stay there and stare and introduce yourselves and you find friends.
C: The two women at the door charging the entrance fee were really good looking blondes, well made up and wearing beautiful clothes and Ruthie was convinced that they were the owner’s wives and not lesbians. She made up a whole story about their glamorous lives. Then one day we go to a Lesbian Discussion Group on the West Side and one of these blondes is there and Ruthie goes right up to her and demands “so you’re a lesbian?” The woman laughs hysterical and says she’s been one since birth, but we were totally green then.
And then the day when we spotted the "Duchess" for the first time sitting alone at the Bar, Ruthie nudges me tells me to go say hello …. she couldn’t do it on her own as that was too much for Ruthie to do back then. The Duchess turned out to be the lynchpin of the whole lesbian social network and she took us under her wing and made sure that if there was any sort of party or gathering then we would be invited.
R: What happened then as they all learned our story of being two married women with children coming together, and they would then tell us their stories in return. They made for tough listening hearing about what they went through even though they were not married and not out either! As I was already out, they wanted to know how it happened. In school I was outed by my ex husband as we were in the same profession so he told the world his story so that everybody should feel sorry for him.
Finding out some of these women’s sad stories : the oppression, the not coming out at work, the losing of children, the losing of family, and their need to come out and so I decided to write a workshop called : The Importance of Being or Is There Life After Coming Out? I have a talent for that, and that’s what started us helping other women and gay men too.
QG: Your faith is an important part of your journeys and I’m wondering if that was a comfort, or did it sometimes add to your confusion about your sexuality?
R: It didn’t add a confusion about my sexuality, but it did to the role that I should play. First of all being Jewish is an amazing experience I think because it leads one ….. or leads me at least ...into being someone who wanted to make changes to help people constantly. Being charitable ….. we have our own charity Connie and I ** ….and being there for somebody, helping out people who are less fortunate was in my nature. Being part of a Jewish household I saw how people helped people, and that was very important for me.
C: When you use the word faith you identify me as someone who is Jewish, which I embrace wholeheartedly. My Jewishness dictates that I should be just, and to be fair, and to be able to be a good listener. That’s my Jewishness in a very loving way, and that’s how I have developed myself. If you are going to use the word faith however that is synonymous with the word God, then I don’t have faith.
R: I think he is using the word faith in relation to religious faith . Your religion is Jewish, your faith is Jewish.
QG: I wasn’t sure about Connie....
C: I’m going to share how I use the word myself . I don’t use the word faith in relationship to God. I have two children living in Israel and my son is Hassidic, so how did I evolve where God is not in my life? Maybe it is because as selfish as I was as a mother letting my children free enough to live with their father, but I don’t believe in God, and I am an atheist. I call myself a culinary Jew because my world without latkes would be unbearable! (laughs)
My charity, my doing things for other people is all my Jewishness…. I don’t believe it comes from a God. Someone asked me if I didn't believe in God, what did I believe in, I said in goodness. And I act out …. not all the time …. but certainly it is my guiding force that gets me through the day and in being a good person.
My charity, my doing things for other people is all my Jewishness…. I don’t believe it comes from a God. Someone asked me if I didn't believe in God, what did I believe in, I said in goodness. And I act out …. not all the time …. but certainly it is my guiding force that gets me through the day and in being a good person.
Being with Ruthie...she has been a guiding force for me . She knows my talents and is totally supportive of my talents …. but when I say totally supportive, don’t let’s get carried away as sometime she is NOT so supportive .
(Both laugh)
I view her as this very brilliant human being that finds solutions to problems . She has this ability to see the bigger picture and I appreciate that about her, and take from her this ability too. If that’s love, then there is a lot of it. We have gone through a great deal : sometimes I’'m very caring of what she goes through, and sometimes I’m angry that she even allows herself to go through it. She is different than I am in a lot of ways . Her mothering was definitely different. Her children are very fortunate that I am not their mother. I used to kibitz that if I ever come back I could be her child because she was very loving and caring and patient as a Saint.
QG: You’ve been part of the community struggle so long ….hence your SAGE Pioneer Award last night … and now we have same sex marriage under our belt, what’s next for our community on your list?
R: There is a couple of things for me. There has always been the elders and the youth. We always want to speak to the youth because when we do it is wonderful for them because they need to know that no matter how much we have, there will always be people who will hate them for just being who they are. They need to know how to get rid of that, and to do this they need to know their history, to meet people, to participate, to be vigilant and learn self defense .
The elders is the same thing. They need to know that we as a community are family, no matter what differences we may have. We have to help each other through the aging process which can be very tough. You may not have a partner, and 9 times out of 10 you will not have children. Your family may have kicked you out, and so there is nobody there for you, so we seriously have to be there for each other .
R: There is one more matter that I am concerned about here in Florida. You get married and then you show those wedding pictures at work and they can still fire you just for being gay. That is an insanity and a tragedy which is very sad for me.
C: Ruthie and I are responsible, and the many Ruthie's and I’s that are out there, to make sure that we not only deal the internalized homophobia that we as a community walk around with, but we also ensure that the institutions know to take responsibility for us their clients. We need to insist that we are not any less comfortable than anyone else living in the institution, whether it is called the hospital or retirement or independent living. Those people who are servicing us better be aware of the possibility that we are lesbians and gay men and that the language they use and the attitudes that they adopt are appropriate .
This week I was called elderly. I am not. I am an elder . There is a big difference and that kind of language has to be learned by everyone working with elders. We are deserving like anybody else, especially when you reach these ages of going through what so many of us have gone through not only as a lesbian, but as a woman . I don't need them to kiss my ring but I certainly need them to know that I have evolved into a person who has aged and needs help with respect and with care as a human being .
These institutions have to have their admission forms with a box for identifies me . I don't care how they do it and how they word it as long as I don't have to write across the form ‘I’m a lesbian’. I want the libraries in these institutions to have books that don't have to have a brown paper bag around them, but books that identify me and something I can relate too. On movie nights there must have the possibility of maybe a love affair between same sex couples . Something that says that I am not only welcome but am part of the community of that institution.
R: We didn’t get any of the new laws in any of the States without the lawyers fighting for us. Congress or any State Senate did not give us shit except for us fighting for it. And the only way we can keep winning is to keep these organizations like LAMBDA … we could never have even started or afforded our lawsuit without them. We tell everybody in person and through social media that we all have a duty to support these people. If you’ve got 5 dollars, then give them a dollar at least : they must survive!
QG: You started your lives together with no role models at all, now decades later we are looking up to you with respect . What would you like the young LGBT people to get from you as their role models?
C: Anything is probable and anything is possible. It's in your hands. Don’t make anyone else responsible for your happiness and good health which we believe are both synonymous with each other. You have to want happy. And you have to have a definition of happy : good health, the joy of living, being spirited, speaking up and speaking out, stop being so shy because that is just an excuse for being scared. Take ‘scared’ and put it into you pocket and go forward. You cannot blame the outside for the mess that you are in because you didn't speak up.
People today should recognize that we have come a long way ….. mind you this is the first time I have used this expression because I don’t always believe that ….
QG: We have…. and you two should acknowledge your part in it.
C: We appreciate that
R: I don’t think that we would be sitting here today if we didn't capture the advice from my mentor at college. She was the first person I went to talk about Connie, and she said of course you can love your best friend, and she had us go to co-counselling . We did certain things that most people don't do, and being a lesbian was just a part of you. Who you are in your creative self is something else. Go for a really good therapy to discharge the stress of your internalized homophobia, and with that things will start to change because you recognize that is part of that .
QG: I always finish these interviews with the same question to everybody. I’m going to make a movie of your life story and I have an unlimited budget, so who will play Ruthie & Connie.
C: (without hesitating) Catherine Deneuve. She has an accent, and I have an accent.
R: She stole my choice ….. so I’ll go with Marisa Tomei. You know why? HBO had a script for movie based on us, and it is still languishing on a shelf somewhere unseen.
C: They were going to get Kathy Bates to play me and Marisa Tomei to play Ruthie as they had both been guidance counselors. But I chose Catherine Deneuve and so you are getting the best of it as who wouldn't want to make love to her!
** R: Connie and I have a charitable fund called “The Oona Numin Fund" and we use the money to help women with children or women alone who need help in order to leave a violent situation or need an economic boost. The name came from my maternal bubbie, Rivka (may she rest in peace). When my bubbie gave charity in the synagogue, she would callout "finif ·tular un a numen," which translated from Yiddish means "five dollars without a name", because anonymity is the highest form of charity. So we adopted the words and made it a name _- Oona Numin _- to be used on money orders when we send money anonymously to women in need and also people in the LGBT community.
